DISQUS

Gideon Addington · 2 years ago

Well, you're right... largely, at least.

Race is unavoidable. But religion, even larger than just the tribal level where most people are religiously, is an expression of worldview and ethe, way of life, etc.

So, yeah. I think "hating a religion" in general is silly, as religion is much more complicated than well... anything. But in broad strokes, religion comes in two major forms: reflective and unreflective.

Religion as blind sheepery, religion as a tribal society, religion that serves to create others is the unreflective sort. It can be good, but its often not.

Reflective religion is almost always a good, almost always something that looks for unity and benevolence in the world aside from the ridiculous "us vs. them" attitudes. It becomes a source towards positive change in the world (not that this is exclusive to reflective religion, but it is the primary mover of such things.) There are reflective varieties within all the major religions, perhaps not as "movements" within but certainly within individuals.

As one of my professors is fond of saying, "religion is the source of most the evil in the world. It's also the source of most the good."

Tara · 2 years ago

I can't vote, because I think they're equally bad. They both involve blind hatred of people for one aspect of who they are. Sure, you can try to separate things out and say "oh, I just hate the religion itself and not the people who ascribe to it" but it very rarely works out like that. It's still prejudice, it's still intolerance, and I'm frankly getting very sick of people judging me according to their misconceived notions about Christianity.

Also, I think it's important to remember that religion is almost as unavoidable as race in many parts of the world, and that much of the religious hatred we see these days is just another form of racism. Islam is the most obvious example of that.

I just think it's very dangerous to hate any group of people as one.

hails · 2 years ago

hatred of a race is baseless. while the tribalist idea is wonky, i do tend to think that racism is just largely a product of passed on prejudice. you could probably track it back to colonialism if you wanted to, but it has to be gathering momentum of its own somewhere in there, else racism would've died out ages ago.

hatred of a religion...hmm. you can kinda view it two ways - community to individual and individual to community. the catholic church is a good example. a lot of what the catholic church does really pisses me off. i don't like george pell sticking his thumb in political pie, i don't like the vatican making decisions about the bible and then preaching about it, and i don't like that they'd rather increase the spread of AIDS than let HIV positive people use condoms. however, i used to spend time with a few catholics that i got along with nicely. they disagreed with the church on some things, agreed on others and somewhere along the line, decided to call themselves catholic. same thing with christianity in general, really. each christian church believes something different and i'd probably be largely opposed to all the vaguely controversial things they said. each individual christian i know, however, is super lovely and makes the bible work for them and will generally just tell me that they believe god loves everyone and that jesus has fixed up our sinning issue, which is fine you know? if i believed in god, then i'd want my god to love everyone and stop hell happening to me as well. the individuals don't tell me i'm going to hell coz of my involved ethical stance on abortion or on stem cell research, or about the fact that i'm as queer as sequins dipped in glitter. to the people i know, that stuff would probably matter, but not be enough to stop them from loving me. the church, on the other hand, would only want me to come say hi if i was planning on taking all my pro-choicing, egg dicing, queer loving ideas back, despite the fact that god loves me regardless.

okay. so it's not really the religions i dislike, but the institution and the hierarchy. individual people, i love them :D and yes, it took me all that time just to figure this out. win.

Mythor · 2 years ago

That was a bit silly of me. There's now a "both" option. :)

However I will point out that I am specifically talking about the religion versus the people who follow it. And not out of blind prejudice, as I agreed that the "tribalist feelings" are not a good reason for it.
That some people are unable to seperate race from religion isn't really the point either - it's still hating one for something they can't change and hating the other for something they can change if they want to.

I didn't say it's a good idea to hate either religion or race, the question was which is worse. ;)

Mythor · 2 years ago

Yes, the institution, not the people. That's my point but it seems to get lost in amongst people wanting to conflate the two.
I have Christian friends and have had friends of all kinds of other religions and never had a problem with the majority of them due to religious beliefs. Generally because where I would have an issue with their church's stance on something it's not something they themselves agree with anyway.

I can completely see Tara's (above) point in that some people aren't capable of seperating the two - religion and the people who follow it - but I don't think it's true that everyone is incapable of it.

Tara · 2 years ago

Yeah, I know you can tell the difference between the people and the institution, but unfortunately a lot of the people who go on about hating one religion or another can't :( I also think there needs to be a distinction between the actual religion and the various interpretations of one or another small aspect of the religion to suit a small group of people's completely unrelated goals. Perversion of religion is always the thing that causes trouble, whether that perversion leads to 9-11, Fred Phelps or killing yourself to join Hale Bop ;)

nug · 2 years ago

Dunno which to pick. You'd have to define race and religion to me. As I understand it, there's bugger all people out there that are actually a true race through and through. Everyone's a bastard hodgepodge of other shit aren't they?
Where does religion define itself? Societies base their values on religion. Am I religious because I share these values but don't go to church? What qualifies as a religion? Mocking scientologists isn't quite on the same level as mocking black people.
Also, where does the distinction lie between hating a religion and hating the people that follow it?

I partially agree with the statement you quoted, but I suspect for different reasons. I think 'tribalist feelings left over from ancient times' works if it means 'humans (especially in packs) hate people who are different to them'.

Mythor · 2 years ago

religion: noun -
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
Etc.
Many people are of mixed descent, but it's not always an equal mix and not always obvious. A mix of a Japanese and Korean would still result in someone that looks Asian, and that's often enough for some people.

Societies do base some of their values on religion though in some cases the value came first and religion co-opted it to coerce people into following the religion. But the value itself is independent of religion in most instances. For example an atheist can agree that murder is bad, but that doesn't mean they're a follower of a religion that is against murder.
The distinction between hating a religion and the people who follow it is that the religion is an impersonal entity. It might be following the teachings or decrees of individuals, but a religion can't denounce certain parts of itself. An individual can choose to ignore any part of their religious beliefs that they choose. So while a religion might include not eating peanut butter on Wednesdays, an individual might choose to think that's a silly part of their religion and not follow it.

And yes, that's one reason why people hate on others, but it's not the only one. Saying that it's the only reason is an oversimplification of a very complex issue.

nug · 2 years ago

Yes yes, definitely not the only one.
Unspecificity in hating races? Hee.

Aren't values and religion the same thing in some cases? A lot of people identify with christianity but aren't spiritual in the christian sense. Their belief systems are based on the same values.

Anyway, per your definition, I pick 'hatred of race' being worse. Seems a no brainer within this context.

Elizabeth · 1 year ago

All hatred is equally evil, and you are caught up in it. I too disapprove of how far man has derived religion from God, but there is no excuse to hate. Don’t let the lists of contradictory religious laws confuse you, there is only one law and that is Love. So instead of wasting time over complicating a non-issue, why don't you care for yourself? We all have the Divine gift to Love. I suggest exercising your gifts for the greater good of all, instead of being destructive.